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I am not sure where you are getting your information from, but the building has been bought and paid for. There were no purchase contingencies, it is a DONE DEAL.

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Getting the information from whelan himself see:
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/05-05/05-18-05/a01lo406.htm

The purchase-and-sale agreements with four private property owners will not be finalized, Mr. Whelan said, until 30 days after a state review of the project is completed. The review, made under the Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act (MEPA), will examine such issues as traffic, drainage, utilities and development concerns with the site.

The MEPA Public Comment period doesn't end until Sept 23, 2005. Thirty days after that is the end of Oct. which is the earliest it could be a DONE DEAL and it won't. It will have trouble making it through the MEPA comment period for a number of reasons.

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I do not know how true it is maybe someone here can enilghten us. I thought I heard that there were $48,000 in outstanding taxes on that property, but yet was sold to Leontire without public notice or public bid, for $10,000, he who will sell it, or has sold it, for over a million dollars to the Home Depot people.
I understand the building had burned, but surely the land itself was not worth the $48,000 owed to the city? Am I the only one who finds that funny or is even bringing it up makes me anti-kalisz, anti-home depot and jobs, blah, blah, blah. I was told an offer was made to the city for over $7000,000 but was turned down.

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There was several lots that went for $10,000 this being one of them:

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/09-97/09-19-97/a01lo043.htm

According to Matt Thomas it's $230,000 in back taxes.

Mr. Thomas said he expects to sell the parcel of land for at least $230,000 -- the amount owed the city in back taxes. Costello must remove the building within nine months and obtain a $100 million insurance policy for land.
"This is a very innovative way to do this. We're the only municipality to do this way," he said.
But one man's innovation can be another's folly.

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Will you people go and crawl back under your rock, or in your case a pile of old bricks. Prime real estate??? A couple of polluted, poorly accessible lots in a ghetto. Valuable waterfront front property??? No boat access, PCB contamination, and a smell at low tide that will curl your toenails. Tourists lining up in the droves to keep our money from being sent to greedy corporations in Atlanta??? Conspiracy theories??? Federal investigations??? Put your collection of Twilight Zone Beta tapes in the garbage and take your medication.

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Apparently you skipped the part about not throwing a hissy fit....I would suggest that you bring some facts to the table next time. I am willing to admit mistakes when someone presents me with actual facts. Right now all I hear is whining but hey I'll adress your whinging, I have a kid, I'm used to it.
If you go to City Hall and check out the Goody Clancy SmartGrowth Plan you will see that the Fairhaven Mill's site is included and is seen as Prime Real Estate, if it wasn't then Goody Clancy would not have included it in it's plan. If you could think outside of your box for a moment you would realize that no one denies that the area around the Mill is in need of some major clean up. There is government money available to clean it up. There is also funding and grants that could be used for all kinds of projects for that area/neighborhood. Don't point fingers at private developers for not jumping all over that area---some have tried and been "burned out"---point fingers at your City Workers
who have turned their backs on that area and now are trying to act like they care. If they cared, the city would have cleaned that area up years ago.
As for the toxic river, if it's SO horrible then why is the city throwing the river walk in our faces so vehemently. Thank God for Home Depot because they are going to build us a River Walk. Yes the River is contaminated but guess what---it's in the process of being cleaned and the post clean-up plan includes recreational use, among them: boating (recreational boats can reach that strech of the river) and fishing.
If this wasn't a Prime Piece of Property do you really think Home Depot would be willing to work so hard for it? Do you really think they would be willing to lie (they are trying to build their Garden Center in a Flood Zone and presented our Conservation Commission with inaccurate Flood Maps), cheat (they made sure that they "owned" 75% of the property, a stipulation of the RFP, before telling our Redevelopment Authority "OK, now post the RFP so other developers can have a shot at it".) and steal (remember they are paying the city $20,000 for $500,000 worth of land) their way through this project.

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Talk about not stating the facts! What are you implying with your "burned out" in cryptic quotes?? There is NO proof to the rumors that building was burned by anyone and to say so is libelous. That's why no body actually names and names....

You have no proof that Home Depot would finally build their garden center in a flood plain. That's all in the planning stages.

And, finally, WHAT do you think will be better than this development and WHEN do you think that would occur? Have YOU actually talked with any of the people who live in that area? Maybe you should.

NOTE: If anyone is interested in sending their opinion on the Home Depot project to the Mass. Environmental Protection Agency (MEPA) please go to http://www.mass.gov/envir/mepa/secondlevelpages/currentprojects.htm

There is no reason this process should be shrouded in secrecy. The public has until SEPT. 23 to comment on this project. Addresses and contact names are on this website in addition to a complete breakdown of the proposed project in PDF format. IMHO - Don't let the preservationists determine YOUR future!

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Apparently you skipped the part about not throwing a hissy fit....I would suggest that you bring some facts to the table next time. I am willing to admit mistakes when someone presents me with actual facts. Right now all I hear is whining but hey I'll adress your whinging, I have a kid, I'm used to it.
If you go to City Hall and check out the Goody Clancy SmartGrowth Plan you will see that the Fairhaven Mill's site is included and is seen as Prime Real Estate, if it wasn't then Goody Clancy would not have included it in it's plan. If you could think outside of your box for a moment you would realize that no one denies that the area around the Mill is in need of some major clean up. There is government money available to clean it up. There is also funding and grants that could be used for all kinds of projects for that area/neighborhood. Don't point fingers at private developers for not jumping all over that area---some have tried and been "burned out"---point fingers at your City Workers
who have turned their backs on that area and now are trying to act like they care. If they cared, the city would have cleaned that area up years ago.
As for the toxic river, if it's SO horrible then why is the city throwing the river walk in our faces so vehemently. Thank God for Home Depot because they are going to build us a River Walk. Yes the River is contaminated but guess what---it's in the process of being cleaned and the post clean-up plan includes recreational use, among them: boating (recreational boats can reach that strech of the river) and fishing.
If this wasn't a Prime Piece of Property do you really think Home Depot would be willing to work so hard for it? Do you really think they would be willing to lie (they are trying to build their Garden Center in a Flood Zone and presented our Conservation Commission with inaccurate Flood Maps), cheat (they made sure that they "owned" 75% of the property, a stipulation of the RFP, before telling our Redevelopment Authority "OK, now post the RFP so other developers can have a shot at it".) and steal (remember they are paying the city $20,000 for $500,000 worth of land) their way through this project.

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Talk about not stating the facts! What are you implying with your "burned out" in cryptic quotes?? There is NO proof to the rumors that building was burned by anyone and to say so is libelous. That's why no body actually names and names....

You have no proof that Home Depot would finally build their garden center in a flood plain. That's all in the planning stages.

And, finally, WHAT do you think will be better than this development and WHEN do you think that would occur? Have YOU actually talked with any of the people who live in that area? Maybe you should.

NOTE: If anyone is interested in sending their opinion on the Home Depot project to the Mass. Environmental Protection Agency (MEPA) please go to http://www.mass.gov/envir/mepa/secondlevelpages/currentprojects.htm

There is no reason this process should be shrouded in secrecy. The public has until SEPT. 23 to comment on this project. Addresses and contact names are on this website in addition to a complete breakdown of the proposed project in PDF format. IMHO - Don't let the preservationists determine YOUR future!

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Happy Dog why are you so afraid of change????????????????

The one thing NB has going for it is its history and yet people like you want to squander it at every opportunity. No wonder Boston shits on us regularly, they look at us as being clueless.

If the river is such a disaster then why the Riverwalk, hell why Riverfront Park for that matter or is the river lots better a block away.

As far as the Garden Center they don't have a lot of choices, if not along the river then it has to go along Mitchell St., a tight residential neighborhood, which is equally as bad. And if they were to change the location at this point then everything needs to be redone, so the location isn't changing.

Hey I live down the SouthEnd, the self centered part of me would like nothing more than to see the NorthEnd shoot itself in the foot and be the dumping ground for projects like HD. Hell I don't have to look at it, or deal with the traffic, noise etc. But it is a Gateway to OUR CITY and it will effect the rest of the CITY.

As far as talking with people in the area we have, as far west as Achusnet Ave. haven't found one that is thrilled about it. Some other people did a petition and got 350 signatures but that wasn't valid according to people like you.

And as far as secrecy we've been upfront and fair since this started check out:
www.chuckdade.com/fairhavenmills
This has been up and running for 2 months now, it has all the information both good & bad that you could want. Has the MEPA stuff and the Plans for HD and the Alternatives. The trouble is when you compile all this info it is primarily against HD, that not our fault, write an editorial yourself. But that won't happen cause you would have to have a name and address on it.

And the full MEPA, EENF is about 200 pages long and is available at the Conservation Commission or the EPA not just the first 4 pages, so do some reading and get back to us. I've read the whole thing and would be glad to correct you accordingly, but as far as you just saying stuff and expecting people to take it as fact that just isn't going to keep happening.

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I never said Home Depot would finally do anything. I said they are PLANNING to put the Garden Center in a Flood Zone and used false information to justify doing so.
Please understand that Home Depot will try and pull the wool over everyone's eyes to get what they want. Just because they state something in a report does not mean the info is accurate, as will be stated in a lengthy letter to MEPA. MEPA is much more interested in how the ENF is innacurate, how much of a negative impact this project could have on the area including traffic, pollutants and disruption to the surrounding natural environment. They will also be interested in the fact that Alternatives, a mandatory part of the ENF process, was not adequately addressed. MEPA really doesn't care about your opinion, good or bad. They don't care that you really like Home Depot or that you think the property is worthless. They don't care that other don't like Home Depot or think it is our cities gateway. They care about facts related to issues that are under their jurisdiction.
As far as what do I think would be a better alternative? Just about anything that will add to the quality of life in this city. If you would like a concrete example. How about taking govt. allottwed Brownfield money to clean up the area and turning it into a park with a visitors center. That neighborhood deserves more green space. The children in that neighborhood deserve more safe places to play. Wouldn't a Youth Center be great?
As for my "burned out" comment, I didn't state anything except that other people have shown interest in that area and the city certainly didn't bend over backwards for them--in that sense they were burned, that is a fact. You can read whatever you want to into my wording. Another thing that is a fact is that the fire was deemed suspicious and no investigation took place.
One more thing, a petition did circulate back in May in regards to this issue. There were signatures from neighborhood people and businesses who opposed the Home Depot project and the distruction of the Mill. You can ask you Ward Councilor about that---they all got copies.

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I never said Home Depot would finally do anything. I said they are PLANNING to put the Garden Center in a Flood Zone and used false information to justify doing so.

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Dear Angry Smurf,
I spoke to the Ward Councilor for the Fairhaven Mills area back in February, before this was public knowledge. He told me he thought Home Depot was a bad idea but politics is a tough game.
You also might want to explain to Fall River, Lowell, Framingham, Worcester, who have helped turn their struggling economies around by reusing all those brick buildings, that Smart Growth, which champions old building re-use, is wrong.
You believe that New Bedford has too many non-profits? These non-profits add to the quality of life in this city. They allow avenues for people to express themselves through arts and culture. They educate people about the exceptionalness of this city. They help to protect the less fortunate. We need to increase our tax base? A brief online search will show you that in general big box retail takes away from the tax base.
You really believe that Riverside Park is sufficient green space? Have you ever been to Central Park located in NEW YORK CITY? You can never have too much green space.
On to the Youth Center---those you listed (and by the way Artworks is not a Youth Center) are not centrally located to that neighborhood. Wouldn't it be nice if there was something within walking distance for those children? And by the way, all those 5-15 year olds crying for jobs, you might want to tell them about the Child Labor Laws. You did say the youth of this city want jobs not a place to hang out right?

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knowing what I know I can see what a bunch of fools you are, none of you have the facts straight......

Go FISH

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Dear Angry Smurf,
I spoke to the Ward Councilor for the Fairhaven Mills area back in February, before this was public knowledge. He told me he thought Home Depot was a bad idea but politics is a tough game.
You also might want to explain to Fall River, Lowell, Framingham, Worcester, who have helped turn their struggling economies around by reusing all those brick buildings, that Smart Growth, which champions old building re-use, is wrong.
You believe that New Bedford has too many non-profits? These non-profits add to the quality of life in this city. They allow avenues for people to express themselves through arts and culture. They educate people about the exceptionalness of this city. They help to protect the less fortunate. We need to increase our tax base? A brief online search will show you that in general big box retail takes away from the tax base.
You really believe that Riverside Park is sufficient green space? Have you ever been to Central Park located in NEW YORK CITY? You can never have too much green space.
On to the Youth Center---those you listed (and by the way Artworks is not a Youth Center) are not centrally located to that neighborhood. Wouldn't it be nice if there was something within walking distance for those children? And by the way, all those 5-15 year olds crying for jobs, you might want to tell them about the Child Labor Laws. You did say the youth of this city want jobs not a place to hang out right?

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I'm sorry you choose to call anyone with a different opinion names. Sad, but typical....

You are just wrong on this. Councillor Medeiros voted for the Home Depot at the final council meeting on the subject and was active in getting others out there to speak up for the development. Were you at that meeting?? I was.

All those towns you mention have done nice things with SOME of their mills - not all. Not every mill can be saved or a city will die.

I don't know of another city in this country that has become 100% historical park - unless you mean Sturbridge Village. If you look at any of the cities that have a thriving economy AND historical parks you'll see a mixed use of commercial and non-profit businesses.

AND, I have NOTHING against the non-profits in New Bedford. I WORK for one. I can see the positive benefits they all have for the city. But, a city will not thrive on non-profits alone. Where do you think much of our funding comes from?? The banks and for-profit businesses in the city!

And, ArtWorks does work with the city to offer classes for at-risk youth and has a summer camp for the same population. Maybe you should do your homework before making such comments.

It's a moot point anyway. The city will NEVER let that parcel go to a non-profit. Nothing you can do about it.

There is a nice brick mill the city is trying to unload behind the other antiques mart for $200,000. Why don't you get some people together and open up a youth center if you feel strongly that's what the neighborhood needs??

And as for child labor laws - are you aware the Fairhaven Mills was documented by the WPA for having exploited children when it was in the spinning business. Check out the Library of Congress to read all about it. The New Bedford Museum of Art will be putting on show in Nov. about child labor in the Mill. That is the reality of the past of that building. It is not romantic. It is about kids working 12 hour days in the heat and cold around dangerous machinery.

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Happy Dog are you getting sensitive?

Find it interesting that you live in the neighborhood near the proposed HD and don't know your Ward Councilor's name?
It's Joe DeMederios for the record.
And Joe had high hopes at that point if he just did what was told he might be the next Mayor in 2 years, that is before 8 others decided they couldn't wait for two years.
I was at the meeting, hell I even spoke, did you?

Nice that there's a mill behind the Acushnet River Antiques but we've got one on Coggeshall St. that we are working on.

FYI Did you know that the Shell Station would be put out of business if the HD plan had moved forward without having a better look at it? Now here's a neighbor who spoke at the Council Demo. meeting in favor of HD till he found out he was getting the shaft.

And we know all about Hines, be sure to come to the opening of his works, would love to meet you.

You seem to know most of the facts, too bad you spin them to meet your own needs. You might have noticed when I quote relevant facts I'll include the link so you can read the full text, then interpret it as you like.

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The only people throwing a hissy fit here beside you are the flea market vendors in the mill who will lose their cheap space,

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historical extremists who can’t stand to see anything modern,

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and the Mayors political opponents.

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I can understand why your kid is a whiner, children are known to imitate their parents. Mommy, Home Depot is lying. Daddy, Home Depot is cheating. Judging from your fondness off government grants and handouts, I’d bet that you’re also on welfare. What a joke. In one breath you’re crying about city government selling the property at a reduced price to a private enterprise that is willing to clean it up and then whining that the government could provide clean up funds. You’re just a liberal, socialist, government has to do everything for me, loser.

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One entry found for irregardless.


Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

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Whooohooo - someone has waaaayyy too much time on one's hands. Proofreading bulletin board posts - how sad.

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One entry found for irregardless.


Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

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Whooohooo - someone has waaaayyy too much time on one's hands. Proofreading bulletin board posts - how sad.

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Happy Dog,

You're starting to scare me, moving into .02 cents realm of one word answers.

I know it's a chore to agrue with literate and informed people but do give it a little more effort. I know it will take a bit of time away from everything else you comment on.

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One entry found for irregardless.


Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

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Whooohooo - someone has waaaayyy too much time on one's hands. Proofreading bulletin board posts - how sad.

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Happy Dog,

You're starting to scare me, moving into .02 cents realm of one word answers.

I know it's a chore to agrue with literate and informed people but do give it a little more effort. I know it will take a bit of time away from everything else you comment on.

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You people trying to a save the Fairhaven Mill think you're the most cultured and educated population in the city. It's just do pathetic. There are many of us in the arts and culture community, in the colleges and universities, and in business that see the new development plans in a positive light. You just assume anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid and narrow minded, and ironically, you just prove you're that way yourself. It's your condescending superior attitude that undermines your credibility more than anything else.

You all are so high-minded talking about your "alternative" plans. Everyone can see the Orpheum still sitting there looking much the same as it ever did. There are many of us, who yes, sorry, are educated and smart - who DON'T want to see the same thing happen to the Fairhaven Mill lots - lots of talk absolutely NO action - while a neighborhood deteriorates. Didn't you say you live in the SOUTH end. Why don't you pay some attention to what's happening with some of the mill buildings in that area?? The mills on Cove Street are also endangered. The people who live in the neighborhoods close to the mills should have the greatest say in what happens to the surrounding environments.

You can try to discredit me with your sarcasm and cynical answers but you people are going to have a fight on your hands from the citizens who live in the Hicks/Logan and Acushnet Heights neighborhoods when you try to oppose any future development in that area!

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One entry found for irregardless.


Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

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Whooohooo - someone has waaaayyy too much time on one's hands. Proofreading bulletin board posts - how sad.

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Happy Dog,

You're starting to scare me, moving into .02 cents realm of one word answers.

I know it's a chore to agrue with literate and informed people but do give it a little more effort. I know it will take a bit of time away from everything else you comment on.

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You people trying to a save the Fairhaven Mill think you're the most cultured and educated population in the city. It's just do pathetic. There are many of us in the arts and culture community, in the colleges and universities, and in business that see the new development plans in a positive light. You just assume anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid and narrow minded, and ironically, you just prove you're that way yourself. It's your condescending superior attitude that undermines your credibility more than anything else.

You all are so high-minded talking about your "alternative" plans. Everyone can see the Orpheum still sitting there looking much the same as it ever did. There are many of us, who yes, sorry, are educated and smart - who DON'T want to see the same thing happen to the Fairhaven Mill lots - lots of talk absolutely NO action - while a neighborhood deteriorates. Didn't you say you live in the SOUTH end. Why don't you pay some attention to what's happening with some of the mill buildings in that area?? The mills on Cove Street are also endangered. The people who live in the neighborhoods close to the mills should have the greatest say in what happens to the surrounding environments.

You can try to discredit me with your sarcasm and cynical answers but you people are going to have a fight on your hands from the citizens who live in the Hicks/Logan and Acushnet Heights neighborhoods when you try to oppose any future development in that area!

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Don't think that at all. The group of people opposed to HD is quite diverse, among the artists and preservationists which are in the minority, are neighbors who don't think 700 cars, plus regular traffic, plus tractor trailers in a four block area adds to their children's life in any way, you have a wide range of small business owners and you have people that realize this deal has stunk from the git go.

I would question your there are many in the arts & culture, university, college that would think of Sprawl Development as a boon, perhaps a few might.

As far as my personal credibity, its just fine. I have enough of a track record of doing innovative things that isn't an issue.

As far as the Orpheum that is moving along nicely and if we had a more progressive City Government would have been already started. But it is still STANDING, so it does have a potential Future.

As far as Cove St. everything is fine there also, the people that own most of the mills down here are hip enough to be developing them along Smart Growth lines. They are not endangered at all. None of us on this side are ANTI-DEVELOPMENT, we're just not willing to settle for any, ill concieved development.

As far as your last statement, if you can't take it, don't dish it out. You've repeatedly attacked me and now Electric Girl with VILE STATEMENTS but if we respond accordingly you start whine. If you want to have intelligent dialog then state the facts and give your sources, sorry I just can't accept whatever you say as the truth.

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As far as your last statement, if you can't take it, don't dish it out. You've repeatedly attacked me and now Electric Girl with VILE STATEMENTS but if we respond accordingly you start whine. If you want to have intelligent dialog then state the facts and give your sources, sorry I just can't accept whatever you say as the truth.

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Beyond that if the city has a better plan they through eminent domain they can throw anyone that's there out take over the property and have it developed anyway they see fit. I'm sure there's many alternatives that would be better than Home Depot.

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There is government money available to clean it up.

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Beyond that if the city has a better plan they through eminent domain they can throw anyone that's there out take over the property and have it developed anyway they see fit. I'm sure there's many alternatives that would be better than Home Depot.

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This is the lesson of a little understood event called the American Revolution. Better than Home Depot? Better for whom, for what purpose, by what standard, at what cost, at whose cost, by whose judgement? Oh, you dont want to think about these things?

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Wizard, I completely agree with you here! Good post! Who determines what is a "better" project is and how....

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Let's get our stories straight. The burned mill did have a $700,000 offer on it, about a week before it mysteriously burned down. Do you really think that those who had been working on the Home Depot deal for five years were going to let anything get in their way?

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Please listen closely and understand that we all want what is best for this city. While we may disagree as to how that should be accomplished I would bank money that internal dissention is not the key to turning NB around. While we sit here on this forum and throw barbs back and forth one thing is quite evident: we all care passionately about this city. If we could all stand down for two seconds we would probably realize that we could learn from each other.
I am not anitbusiness, I own one. Do I shop at Big Box stores? Hell yes.
Here are my issues: 1) A big box does not belong in that particular area. That is residential for the most part with children running around, riding their bikes etc. This flow of children will increase once Riverside Park opens. Large tractor trailers and children are not a good mix. There are Artist Live/Work spaces being built right behind where Home Depot's loading dock will be. And by the way, when the owners of the SawTooth building first spoke to "the city" about their plan, the city people knew about the HD plan and didn't tell them. That is just plain wrong. 2) It would be nice to attract more people to the area or keep our college grads from leaving. Home Depot is not going to solve that problem. These are not the type of jobs that this city needs to get out of it's economic slump. We need high tech, bio tech, medical etc., the types of businesses that are flocking to Mill space in other cities. 3) There are many great current studies that show that Arts and Tourism is the main economic driver in the state of MA. Other cities are jealous of what NB has: a diverse mix of cultures, an amazing history, beautiful buildings, a working waterfront, a zoo, great food etc. There should be a MasterPlan in place to build off of all these things and to pull this city together to create a place we can all be proud of and that outsiders will envy and flock to. This MasterPlan should include using the Fairhaven Mill as our Gateway and increasing it's ability to pull people off the highway and then directing them to the rest of NB. NB Antiques already attracts people from all over the world, 195 carries some of the richest people driving back and forth from NY to the Cape. Home Depot will not pull people off the highway. 4) I spoke with Councilor DeMedeiros last night. Again he told me that he doesn't think HD is the best idea but that neighborhood is hungry for something. He is absolutely right. But they, as well as the rest of the city, deserve a say in that process. I think everybody would like something else besides a HD and we shouldn't have to settle for second best, NB is too damn good for that. A MasterPlan and open dialogue between the Corner Office and the rest of the city would not only eliminate these Do or Die projects but also create a more cohesive city and one where we are all working towards the same goals rather than screaming at each other on an on-line forum.

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the opinion of (at best) a group of the vision deprived, who may not have a global enough perspective to really see what's good for them (and their offspring) and who will settle for something they percieve as better discarding the possibilties of what's really good

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Beyond that if the city has a better plan they through eminent domain they can throw anyone that's there out take over the property and have it developed anyway they see fit. I'm sure there's many alternatives that would be better than Home Depot.

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If govt can force your enemies to do what you want, then govt can force you to do what your enemies want. This is the lesson of a little understood event called the American Revolution. Better than Home Depot? Better for whom, for what purpose, by what standard, at what cost, at whose cost, by whose judgement? Oh, you dont want to think about these things? Then you agree that "No economic policy is possible without a sword," as Hitler, the leader of the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, said. The Fairhaven Mills owner has a moral right to sell to Home Depot. Home Depot has a moral right to buy it, tear it down, build their store and earn and keep any profit. No one else has any moral rights here. Eminent Doman is immoral and theft and should be removed from the Constitution. There is no public good. There is only individual good and that is the only source of productive jobs. Slaves have jobs. Down with socialism. Read Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal by Ayn Rand.

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You said "Slaves have jobs..."

Something wrong if you think that's a good working philosphy..

As far as the government being able to do it to me if they do it to someone else..

Well, duh...

Despite the fact that they were major contributors in the military ironically, the government has done it to my family..twice..

They forced them out of their home/business in the 30's to build Bay Village and they forced them off Penniman Street to build 195.


Sometimes we have to defer to a greater good for the many at the expense of the few..

If the city were to come up with a really great plan it certainly would be right to implement it using eminent domain..


As far as Meldon goes, I heard that he didn't really want to sell his property ; that the local powers that be, basicly, forced him to sell.

I overheard at a coffee shop that besides the burning biulding rumor there's one where he was demanded to acquiesce to a deal by a certain time or "You'll be hearing from us"

the story continues that within a half-hour of the demand time city inspector's showed up and wrote up over twenty violations.

A rather strange co-incidence. Does anyone know whether this is true or not..

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we all want what is best for this city....A MasterPlan....where we are all working towards the same goals

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As a child I remember being on welfare and thank God that system was in place, it allowed my parents to go from poverty stricken to upper middle class homeowners who paid for their child to attend college out of their own pockets.

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we all want what is best for this city....A MasterPlan....where we are all working towards the same goals

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Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings....The intellect has grown autocratic and has become a disease of life....the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual....[a]truly human culture [is caused by] only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community....the Common Interest before Self....HITLER

The economic system must serve the nation. NAZI MINISTER OF ECONOMICS HJALMAR SCHACHT

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Do you even know who you are..





Ayn Rand is so close to being Nazi on the one hand (
Kind of Hitler Lite) and you quote her as something good


And then you quote Hitler as something bad...

Which is it? They're two branches off the same tree; you can't have it both ways..

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Ayn Rand is so close to being Nazi on the one hand (Kind of Hitler Lite) and you quote her as something good. And then you quote Hitler as something bad...Which is it? They're two branches off the same tree; you can't have it both ways..

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the opinion of (at best) a group of the vision deprived, who may not have a global enough perspective to really see what's good for them (and their offspring) and who will settle for something they percieve as better discarding the possibilties of what's really good

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Here is a socialist telling us that independent judgement is worthless. Your mind is no good. Let the Social Mind do your thinking for you. And why is the Social Mind a great thinker? Because the Social Mind is not motivated by self-interest. If you want to live your live for your own personal happiness, by your own judgements, you are evil and stupid. The Social Mind sees all, knows all and will never allow anyone to act in his own self-interest as understood by his own mind. Nazism? Never heard of it. Marxism? Nobody here but us chickens, Boss. Bow down and lick the boots of the Social Mind because your puny, independent mind is biased, defective, subjective. The Social Mind is objective. Why? Because its nobody's mind in particular. This is how dictatorship starts, not with politics and economics but by socializing your mind. Dont think with your own, weak mind. The Social Mind will think for you. Dont think for yourself because it is the essence of selfishness. The essence of selflessness is not thinking for yourself.

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Good point again. This whole thread is becoming an illustration of exactly what you are saying here.

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Ayn Rand is so close to being Nazi on the one hand (Kind of Hitler Lite) and you quote her as something good. And then you quote Hitler as something bad...Which is it? They're two branches off the same tree; you can't have it both ways..

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Rand is an advocate of reason, selfishness, and individualism. Nazism is an advocacy of racial subjectivism, sacrifice, and collectivism. But Rand and Hitler both wore shoes so they are both shoewearers, both branches off the same tree. You must be a university graduate because you are unable to distinguish essentials from non-essentials and you probably resent even the suggestion that they should and can be distinguished.

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Steve, Steve Grossman are you there?????????????????????

I guess we should have went on your "Rational Individualist" show and debated Mike Pappas, I guess this is the price we all have to pay now.

I'm somewhat of a follower of Ayn myself and while you want to label us as Socialist you aren't anywhere near the mark. Ayn would be disappointed with you bending her philosophy to meet your needs.

Ayn would also be appalled at Large Business coming in, having an inside track and not legitimatly competing with other businesses. Essentially stealing and screwing the rest of us.

I'll tell you up front that I won't be responding to many of your posts, if I feel the need to talk to you, I'll go on your show, since you've been asking me for years.

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As far as your last statement, if you can't take it, don't dish it out. You've repeatedly attacked me and now Electric Girl with VILE STATEMENTS but if we respond accordingly you start whine. If you want to have intelligent dialog then state the facts and give your sources, sorry I just can't accept whatever you say as the truth.

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I have not made one "vile statement" about you (whoever you are Anonymous) or Electric Girl nor have made a "vile" statement in this BB. i don't work that way and if I did I'm sure the moderators would edit it out. Show me one "vile" statement I have made. This is just an example of how you enjoy creating a sense of hysteria and drama. It's really quite destructive.

In spite of all your statements about "other" cities with mill redevelopment success - those cities also have what is considered by you to be "sprawl" type development. Fall River, Pittsburgh, San Fran, Boston, Lowell and on and on and on. All have some form of 'big box" type stores along with very nice historic areas. A city can not survive on "art" alone. People actually enjoy having some "big box" places to shop.. Why do you think they are so successful.

Mixed use high - tech business, retail big and small and arts and culture is the key to success. Each HELPS the other NOT hurts. Your hysterical references to biased studies on the impact of "big box" development is not helpful to dialog about New Beford. This city has no viable business base. It is losing population and businesses. Something needs to be done to turn the tide and your attempts to discredit the current city government are really very destructive to the people of New Bedford and to the spirit of this city. You have consistantly portrayed our mayor as practically a criminal with NO proof whatsoever of any evil or underhanded goings on. You seem to have no understanding of how city governments work or how arts and culture can work WITH big businesses. This type of negativity is VERY destructive to this city and I'm very concerned. I DO value the arts and culture in this city. More than you know. And without a business base it will die.

You try to whip well-meaning and uninformed people into an hysterical frenzy with your diatribes and quotes from "Not Just Anywhere" when in reality no one in the city government wants to sacrifice the historical character of the city and this one development does NOT mean the end of the quaintness you value. I've studied these issues for many years and looked at many cities who have developed successful plans for combined arts, historical, and business development and the attitudes of the letters in this BB are very myopic for the most part.

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My apologies Happy Dog this post was mine, in my haste to post I left out Mills-R-US.

As far as Vile perhaps I could have used another word but one of several definitions for vile is 3: of little worth, from Webster's New Explorer Dictionary 1999.

As far as whipping uninformed, well intentioned people into a frenzy, where is this coming from????????

Most everything I post of relevance I include links to, you don't have to take my word for it, read it, digest it, form your own opinion. This is exactly what I hope the well intentioned, uninformed will do.

I've given you endless information when we were debating in a previous post, I guess I'll have to revive that and quote you on it.

WE ARE NOT ANTI-DEVELOPMENT, but we are against the type of development that will have a ripple negative effect on all of NB, not just the North End. Hence our involvement.

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As far as Vile perhaps I could have used another word but one of several definitions for vile is 3: of little worth, from Webster's New Explorer Dictionary 1999.

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Thanks. Nice to know MY statements are "worthless" while YOURS are ever so worth while. So, I guess anyone who disagrees with you is "worthless". You are just proving everything Wizard is saying...

Who are YOU to determine what is good for the people of this city. Do you own a home in this city? I think not...

I am interested in development that will increase MY property values - pure and simple. I think most property owners feel the same. I don't think a burned out mill in a polluted mud field is helping my property values at all. So, it is in MY best interest to see a new development there. Others probably feel the same. Sorry, I don't have the highminded and loftly goals you do for the place. I'm sure you're fighting the Home Depot for purely selfless reasons. Nothing in it at all for YOU personally I'm sure...

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As far as Meldon goes, I heard that he didn't really want to sell his property ; that the local powers that be, basicly, forced him to sell.

I overheard at a coffee shop that besides the burning biulding rumor there's one where he was demanded to acquiesce to a deal by a certain time or "You'll be hearing from us"

the story continues that within a half-hour of the demand time city inspector's showed up and wrote up over twenty violations.

A rather strange co-incidence. Does anyone know whether this is true or not..

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The worst thing that's taking place with the Home Depot opposition is this offensive rumor mill. Don't you realize that this type of rumor can destroy lives? You are insinuating someone committed arson and extortion. You are walking on very thin ice here. You had better have some real evidence before you continue to spread those rumors. He said this...or that....heard in a coffee shop???? Come on - grow up and act like a responsible citizen instead of a destructive spoiled little kid!

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the opinion of (at best) a group of the vision deprived, who may not have a global enough perspective to really see what's good for them (and their offspring) and who will settle for something they percieve as better discarding the possibilties of what's really good

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Here is a socialist telling us that independent judgement is worthless. Your mind is no good. Let the Social Mind do your thinking for you. And why is the Social Mind a great thinker? Because the Social Mind is not motivated by self-interest. If you want to live your live for your own personal happiness, by your own judgements, you are evil and stupid. The Social Mind sees all, knows all and will never allow anyone to act in his own self-interest as understood by his own mind. Nazism? Never heard of it. Marxism? Nobody here but us chickens, Boss. Bow down and lick the boots of the Social Mind because your puny, independent mind is biased, defective, subjective. The Social Mind is objective. Why? Because its nobody's mind in particular. This is how dictatorship starts, not with politics and economics but by socializing your mind. Dont think with your own, weak mind. The Social Mind will think for you. Dont think for yourself because it is the essence of selfishness. The essence of selflessness is not thinking for yourself.

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Good point again. This whole thread is becoming an illustration of exactly what you are saying here.

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The left is losing its cultural influence and is getting desperate enough to be more open about their nihilist hatred of reason and values. And about their powerlust.

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Beyond that if the city has a better plan they through eminent domain they can throw anyone that's there out take over the property and have it developed anyway they see fit. I'm sure there's many alternatives that would be better than Home Depot.

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If govt can force your enemies to do what you want, then govt can force you to do what your enemies want. This is the lesson of a little understood event called the American Revolution. Better than Home Depot? Better for whom, for what purpose, by what standard, at what cost, at whose cost, by whose judgement? Oh, you dont want to think about these things? Then you agree that "No economic policy is possible without a sword," as Hitler, the leader of the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, said. The Fairhaven Mills owner has a moral right to sell to Home Depot. Home Depot has a moral right to buy it, tear it down, build their store and earn and keep any profit. No one else has any moral rights here. Eminent Doman is immoral and theft and should be removed from the Constitution. There is no public good. There is only individual good and that is the only source of productive jobs. Slaves have jobs. Down with socialism. Read Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal by Ayn Rand.

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You said "Slaves have jobs..." Something wrong if you think that's a good working philosphy..

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I meant that jobs might be created by destructive means. Eg, a govt subsidy to a failing industry by taxing a growing, but politically unconnected, industry.

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As far as the government being able to do it to me if they do it to someone else..

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Well, duh...Despite the fact that they were major contributors in the military ironically, the government has done it to my family..twice..They forced them out of their home/business in the 30's to build Bay Village and they forced them off Penniman Street to build 195. Sometimes we have to defer to a greater good for the many at the expense of the few..If the city were to come up with a really great plan it certainly would be right to implement it using eminent domain..

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So youre agreeing w/me about the danger of govt economic intervention but you, mistakenly, think you have a moral obligation to sacrifice your life. But sacrifice is irrational and thus imoral. Your life belongs, absolutely, to you. And other people's lives belongs to them. Thus eminent doman belongs to the individual, not to society or govt.

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As far as Meldon goes, I heard that he didn't really want to sell his property ; that the local powers that be, basicly, forced him to sell.

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If true, that is certainly immoral and destructive of everyone, in the long run, regardless of short-range benefits.

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you want to label us as Socialist you aren't anywhere near the mark. Ayn would be disappointed with you bending her philosophy to meet your needs.

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Ayn would also be appalled at Large Business coming in, having an inside track and not legitimatly competing with other businesses. Essentially stealing and screwing the rest of us.

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As far as Vile perhaps I could have used another word but one of several definitions for vile is 3: of little worth, from Webster's New Explorer Dictionary 1999.

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Thanks. Nice to know MY statements are "worthless" while YOURS are ever so worth while. So, I guess anyone who disagrees with you is "worthless". You are just proving everything Wizard is saying...

Who are YOU to determine what is good for the people of this city. Do you own a home in this city? I think not...

I am interested in development that will increase MY property values - pure and simple. I think most property owners feel the same. I don't think a burned out mill in a polluted mud field is helping my property values at all. So, it is in MY best interest to see a new development there. Others probably feel the same. Sorry, I don't have the highminded and loftly goals you do for the place. I'm sure you're fighting the Home Depot for purely selfless reasons. Nothing in it at all for YOU personally I'm sure...

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I never said your statements are worthless, I would occassionally like some source of backup for some of the crap the you state matter-of-factly.

Oh, and thanks for bringing Steve Grossman onboard, aka Wizard, you must be getting really desperate.

Have you been following any of this?????????????
The first post is a poll, it's been there for 3 days now, where is your majority of people??????????????

If your best shot is annoying people into submission then I guess we've proved our point.

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Ayn Rand is so close to being Nazi on the one hand (Kind of Hitler Lite) and you quote her as something good. And then you quote Hitler as something bad...Which is it? They're two branches off the same tree; you can't have it both ways..

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Rand is an advocate of reason, selfishness, and individualism. Nazism is an advocacy of racial subjectivism, sacrifice, and collectivism. But Rand and Hitler both wore shoes so they are both shoewearers, both branches off the same tree. You must be a university graduate because you are unable to distinguish essentials from non-essentials and you probably resent even the suggestion that they should and can be distinguished.

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I'd say you resemble that remark better yourself..

the essential from the non-essential...

Your continual thread of the importance of jobs is an example of it...

"Even slaves have jobs" WOW


What's better to have a small percentage ofpeople without jobs drawing a small stipend taking care of their kids and drawing a minimal amount of tangible resources or having them get jobs and forcing them to buy cars, gas, dry cleaning, etc to go to th 43rd floor to telemarket this years latest piece of pop trash advertising which will be in the land fills by February.

What's better to use the self serve check-out at the supermarket and hence create a lesser need for payed labor or refusing to and keep the employee working so that he doesn't have to be on welfare so that you can insult him.

I'm done

Let me remind you... this thread is "Home Depot is Not a done deal..."


why don't you take your off-base theoretical BS and argue it at Move-on.com

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As far as Vile perhaps I could have used another word but one of several definitions for vile is 3: of little worth, from Webster's New Explorer Dictionary 1999.

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Thanks. Nice to know MY statements are "worthless" while YOURS are ever so worth while. So, I guess anyone who disagrees with you is "worthless". You are just proving everything Wizard is saying...

Who are YOU to determine what is good for the people of this city. Do you own a home in this city? I think not...

I am interested in development that will increase MY property values - pure and simple. I think most property owners feel the same. I don't think a burned out mill in a polluted mud field is helping my property values at all. So, it is in MY best interest to see a new development there. Others probably feel the same. Sorry, I don't have the highminded and loftly goals you do for the place. I'm sure you're fighting the Home Depot for purely selfless reasons. Nothing in it at all for YOU personally I'm sure...

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I never said your statements are worthless, I would occassionally like some source of backup for some of the crap the you state matter-of-factly.

Oh, and thanks for bringing Steve Grossman onboard, aka Wizard, you must be getting really desperate.

Have you been following any of this?????????????
The first post is a poll, it's been there for 3 days now, where is your majority of people??????????????

If your best shot is annoying people into submission then I guess we've proved our point.

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I think it's time to oust Wizard through a boycott don't even respond..

Lets be pragmatically selfish and totally ignore him. I think that's the most reasnable thing to do .

Because his off beat hyper-intellectualizing is hardly relevant to the thread..

This thread is about the dirty deals and best use of the Fairhaven Mills site

He just likes to hear himself talk..

So Stevo are you still hitch-hiking or is that now to socialist for you?

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A better plan is emerging...

A plan that will bring new visitor money to the city instead of resident money to Atlanta..


Mayor Kalisz will not support this plan; he's backing Whelan and George...

It's time to vote out the whole pile.

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Oh, and thanks for bringing Steve Grossman onboard, aka Wizard, you must be getting really desperate.

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New Bedford needs a makeover. We don't need extreme plastic surgery. You don't remove a nose to sew on a new one. You work with what you have.

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WE ARE NOT ANTI-DEVELOPMENT, but we are against the type of development that will have a ripple negative effect on all of NB, not just the North End. Hence our involvement.

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If anyone is interested in sending their opinion on the Home Depot project to the Mass. Environmental Protection Agency (MEPA) please go to http://www.mass.gov/envir/mepa/secondlevelpages/currentprojects.htm

The public has until SEPT. 23 to comment on this project. Addresses and contact names are on this website in addition to a complete breakdown of the proposed project in PDF format. Don't let the hysterical preservationists determine YOUR future! and your property values. If you don't think it is in your best interest to live near a polluted muddy field filled with buried petroleum tanks and PCBs, a 3/4 burned-out factory filled with asbestos that the fire marshall has termed "an accident waiting to happen", a poorly planned, crowded and dangerous intersection giving access to I195, and don't want your property taxes supporting NB in entirety because there is no business tax base in NB, if you don't want a group of amateurs - people with "alternative" plans and NO proven track record - who are unwilling or unable to present viable costing and breakdown of REAL plans - causing you to see a polluted field and decaying building housing drug dealers and putting us in danger of fire 10 years down the line - then PLEASE contact by September 23:

Secretary Ellen Roy Herzfelder
EOEA, Attn: MEPA Office
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900
Boston MA 02114

and

Mitt Romney, Governor
Kerry Healey, Lt. Governor
Ellen Roy Herzfelder, Secretary
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900, Boston MA 02114
(617) 626-1020
FAX (617) 626-1181

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If anyone is interested in sending their opinion on the Home Depot project to the Mass. Environmental Protection Agency (MEPA)

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Don't let the greedy developers determine YOUR future!

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There are other options, other smart growth developers.

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Prime real estate, visible from the highway, on our waterfront and at the gateway to our fair city, should be developed in such a way that local profits stay HERE.

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WE ARE NOT ANTI-DEVELOPMENT, but we are against the type of development that will have a ripple negative effect on all of NB, not just the North End. Hence our involvement.

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Well, sure, I, too, am against negatives. But I dont think the govt should FORCE my idea of development onto people who disagree w/me. The market, ie, the voluntary trading of production should decide. Its absurd and bizarre to claim that bureaucrats, politicians and a democratic majority are better at choosing what should and should not be developed. Why should a successful, private investor have his development plans forcibly stopped by people who are incompetent to produce profits? Why should the alleged common good, as the Nazis stated in their party platform, come before the individual good? Why should the individual, his knowledge, his investment decisions, his money, ie ,his life be sacrificed to the unsatiable monster of unlimited majority rule, democracy?

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Halliburton should rule the world then.

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In the entire history of moral thought, there has never been a rational defense of sacrifice. And that is why conservatives like faith and liberals like emotion, to defraud people into self-destruction by evading the use of their own minds to guide their lives. Democracy is not a cure for willful stupidity. America and New Bedford would have a much higher standard of living, with much less and shorter unemployment, and with lower prices if the govt would stop placing FORCE between a man's mind and his actions. Democratic majorities have no magic power to create wealth. All they can do is destroy wealth, the wealth that exists now and the wealth that might exist if the competent werre free from political control by the incompetent.

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competent at what? division and domination..


And what is value or wealth? Materiel and high numbered bank accounts..?

How about the wealth of a true culture that enables the largest number of people to live happy fruitful lives despite your sense of wealth that gives those competent at domination to ensure that "Even slaves have jobs"

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But we live in a culture in which altruism has led to the glorification of failure and suffering. Those who lack values are said to be morally superior to those who have values. Unfortunately for this depraved, bloody pseudo-morality, life requires values. In fact, values exist only because life exists. Rocks dont have values. And human values are the product of the mind, the mind that democratic majorities despise and destroy in their lust for unlimited power.

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Are you nuts? Democracy does just the opposite. It does not have lust.. It's the minority of dominators that have lust and democracy acts as a resisitance to their cancerous undertakings.

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The production of material wealth is the product of the independent mind, the independent mind that democracy cannot tolerate in its search for the unreal common good. Capitalism produces.

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Ecological Disaster and concentration of wealth

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Democracy destroys.

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Tyrants and absolute power.

Go away.. You promoter of tyranny.

Let's get back to Re: Home Depot is Not a done deal...

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If anyone is interested in sending their opinion on the Home Depot project to the Mass. Environmental Protection Agency (MEPA) please go to http://www.mass.gov/envir/mepa/secondlevelpages/currentprojects.htm

The public has until SEPT. 23 to comment on this project. Addresses and contact names are on this website in addition to a complete breakdown of the proposed project in PDF format. Don't let the hysterical preservationists determine YOUR future! and your property values. If you don't think it is in your best interest to live near a polluted muddy field filled with buried petroleum tanks and PCBs, a 3/4 burned-out factory filled with asbestos that the fire marshall has termed "an accident waiting to happen", a poorly planned, crowded and dangerous intersection giving access to I195, and don't want your property taxes supporting NB in entirety because there is no business tax base in NB, if you don't want a group of amateurs - people with "alternative" plans and NO proven track record - who are unwilling or unable to present viable costing and breakdown of REAL plans - causing you to see a polluted field and decaying building housing drug dealers and putting us in danger of fire 10 years down the line - then PLEASE contact by September 23:

Secretary Ellen Roy Herzfelder
EOEA, Attn: MEPA Office
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900
Boston MA 02114

and

Mitt Romney, Governor
Kerry Healey, Lt. Governor
Ellen Roy Herzfelder, Secretary
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900, Boston MA 02114
(617) 626-1020
FAX (617) 626-1181

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Thanks for the repost HAPPY DOG.

Too shy to use your normal alias since bringing Steve onboard or is it overboard?????????????????????????

Your reference to the ENF contains only the first 4 pages of a 200 page document, if you're going to respond you need to spend some time at the Conservation Commission or your local EPA to skim the whole report.

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If anyone is interested in sending their opinion on the Home Depot project to the Mass. Environmental Protection Agency (MEPA) please go to http://www.mass.gov/envir/mepa/secondlevelpages/currentprojects.htm

The public has until SEPT. 23 to comment on this project. Addresses and contact names are on this website in addition to a complete breakdown of the proposed project in PDF format. Don't let the hysterical preservationists determine YOUR future! and your property values. If you don't think it is in your best interest to live near a polluted muddy field filled with buried petroleum tanks and PCBs, a 3/4 burned-out factory filled with asbestos that the fire marshall has termed "an accident waiting to happen", a poorly planned, crowded and dangerous intersection giving access to I195, and don't want your property taxes supporting NB in entirety because there is no business tax base in NB, if you don't want a group of amateurs - people with "alternative" plans and NO proven track record - who are unwilling or unable to present viable costing and breakdown of REAL plans - causing you to see a polluted field and decaying building housing drug dealers and putting us in danger of fire 10 years down the line - then PLEASE contact by September 23:

Secretary Ellen Roy Herzfelder
EOEA, Attn: MEPA Office
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900
Boston MA 02114

and

Mitt Romney, Governor
Kerry Healey, Lt. Governor
Ellen Roy Herzfelder, Secretary
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900, Boston MA 02114
(617) 626-1020
FAX (617) 626-1181

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The current Secretary of the EOEA is Stephen Pritchard, as of July 2005. Double-check your information, people.

And speaking of facts:

1. The sale of the parcels on the site are not final nor complete, otherwise, Home Depot would be in deep yoghurt with the MEPA review because it states specifically in the Code of Mass. Regulations, (301 CMR 11) that the MEPA review must occur prior to a Land Transfer. So the deal is by no means done. Under the law, it cannot be "done."

2. Capitalism is a form of economy or market, democracy is a form of government. One does not displace nor replace the other. It can be confusing since we here in the US seem to have the "best democracy that money can buy" (Greg Palast)--high time we separate the two.

3. The new ruling by the Supreme Court on eminent domain means the city could decide to keep Home Depot company by seizing private homes in the area, not just the small businesses lining Coggeshall St. All based on the city's idea of what constitutes economic development.

A brain-tickler: if these mega stores like HD and Walmart are such great economic development and good for the local tax base, why has Dartmouth had to have a Prop 2 1/2 override vote on building a branch library? Seems to me with all the sprawl lining Route 6 and Faunce Corner Road, they would have their coffers overflowing with surplus cash--but they don't.

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If anyone is interested in sending their opinion on the Home Depot project to the Mass. Environmental Protection Agency (MEPA) please go to http://www.mass.gov/envir/mepa/secondlevelpages/currentprojects.htm

The public has until SEPT. 23 to comment on this project. Addresses and contact names are on this website in addition to a complete breakdown of the proposed project in PDF format. Don't let the hysterical preservationists determine YOUR future! and your property values. If you don't think it is in your best interest to live near a polluted muddy field filled with buried petroleum tanks and PCBs, a 3/4 burned-out factory filled with asbestos that the fire marshall has termed "an accident waiting to happen", a poorly planned, crowded and dangerous intersection giving access to I195, and don't want your property taxes supporting NB in entirety because there is no business tax base in NB, if you don't want a group of amateurs - people with "alternative" plans and NO proven track record - who are unwilling or unable to present viable costing and breakdown of REAL plans - causing you to see a polluted field and decaying building housing drug dealers and putting us in danger of fire 10 years down the line - then PLEASE contact by September 23:

Secretary Ellen Roy Herzfelder
EOEA, Attn: MEPA Office
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900
Boston MA 02114

and

Mitt Romney, Governor
Kerry Healey, Lt. Governor
Ellen Roy Herzfelder, Secretary
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900, Boston MA 02114
(617) 626-1020
FAX (617) 626-1181

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Thanks for the repost HAPPY DOG.

Too shy to use your normal alias since bringing Steve onboard or is it overboard?????????????????????????

Your reference to the ENF contains only the first 4 pages of a 200 page document, if you're going to respond you need to spend some time at the Conservation Commission or your local EPA to skim the whole report.

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No, I'm not too shy to use my "own" name or one of them at least. I'm not registered so I go by many names on the BB. I don't have any problem with Wizard replying to my posts. I don't agree with all he says on other threads but he is in agreement with me on this subject and is a smart guy so why should I mind?

I do think it is extremely rude of you to try and "out" someone on this board who chooses to use an alias. I think you should be banned from posting on this board since this is designed to be anonymous by CHOICE! Who are you to publicize who you think someone's alias is? You are obviously very desperate and very immature!

If I had time on my hands, which I don't, I'd sit down and read a 200 page EPA document. As for me, the 4 page summary will do quite nicely. I can see with my own eyes what a state of disrepair the Fairhaven Mills is in and can see what a depressing, filthy dump that land around it has become. You'd think if you and your group cared so damn much about the place you'd have come in and cleaned it up yourselves long ago. That place has looked much the same for years, even before the fire. You don't do anything about the mess until something else comes along and then you want to stand in the way of progress. Typical lazy NB BS!

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I wish planners would get to together on the Home Depot project and the new Public Safety center if it goes in the Coggeshall St location. By planning ahead Coggeshall St from the Fairhaven line to Purchase St could be redesigned to accomodate both projects.

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Good idea. Nice to see one here finally!

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"Even slaves have jobs"

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WOW

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Your emotion is not a substitute for ideas, the ideas which you dont have. "Trust your emotions, your instincts or whatever you call them. Never trust your knowledge." HITLER.

Thus jobs are not necessarily good for the jobholder, my point which you evaded posting. I compared a slave's job to govt subsidized jobs. The subsidized job produces less wealth than a capitalist job. The subsidized jobholder is hurt by the lesser wealth creation. What goes around comes around. But youre a short-range thinker, like addicts, prostitutes and street thieves.

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What's better, to have a small percentage of people without jobs drawing a small stipend taking care of their kids and drawing a minimal amount of tangible resources, or having them get jobs and forcing them to buy cars, gas, dry cleaning, etc to go to th 43rd floor to telemarket this years latest piece of pop trash advertising which will be in the land fills by February.

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Your Marxist contempt for productive work is noted. The Garden of Eden is an impossible fantasy. And man has free will, despite Marx, so people choose to buy or not buy things. You have no evidence that these are the only alternatives. Better for whom, at whose expense, for what purpose, by what standard? All money taxed from productive people and given to unproductive people is money that is not invested in more production, production that benefits all.

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What's better, to use the self serve check-out at the supermarket and hence create a lesser need for payed labor, or refusing to and keep the employee working so that he doesn't have to be on welfare so that you can insult him.

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In your anti-reason, anti-man, anti-happiness, anti-reality fantasy, human life is impossiible, a choice among destructive alternatives. Realiity and reason have no place in your communist fantasy.

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why don't you take your off-base theoretical BS and argue it at Move-on.com

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What is your allegedly better base?

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As for me, the 4 page summary will do quite nicely. I can see with my own eyes what a state of disrepair the Fairhaven Mills is in and can see what a depressing, filthy dump that land around it has become. You'd think if you and your group cared so damn much about the place you'd have come in and cleaned it up yourselves long ago. That place has looked much the same for years, even before the fire. You don't do anything about the mess until something else comes along and then you want to stand in the way of progress. Typical lazy NB BS!

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If you think making a mess of traffic on Coggeshall will be bad for local business on the Ave., spread the word! If you think run-off from a Home Depot parking lot will be bad for the river which American taxpayers are paying millions of dollars to clean-up, speak up NOW.

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If anyone is interested in sending their opinion on the Home Depot project to the Mass. Environmental Protection Agency (MEPA) please go to http://www.mass.gov/envir/mepa/secondlevelpages/currentprojects.htm

The public has until SEPT. 23 to comment on this project. Addresses and contact names are on this website in addition to a complete breakdown of the proposed project in PDF format. Don't let the hysterical preservationists determine YOUR future! and your property values. If you don't think it is in your best interest to live near a polluted muddy field filled with buried petroleum tanks and PCBs, a 3/4 burned-out factory filled with asbestos that the fire marshall has termed "an accident waiting to happen", a poorly planned, crowded and dangerous intersection giving access to I195, and don't want your property taxes supporting NB in entirety because there is no business tax base in NB, if you don't want a group of amateurs - people with "alternative" plans and NO proven track record - who are unwilling or unable to present viable costing and breakdown of REAL plans - causing you to see a polluted field and decaying building housing drug dealers and putting us in danger of fire 10 years down the line - then PLEASE contact by September 23:

Secretary Ellen Roy Herzfelder
EOEA, Attn: MEPA Office
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900
Boston MA 02114

and

Mitt Romney, Governor
Kerry Healey, Lt. Governor
Ellen Roy Herzfelder, Secretary
100 Cambridge Street, Suite 900, Boston MA 02114
(617) 626-1020
FAX (617) 626-1181

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Thanks for the repost HAPPY DOG.

Too shy to use your normal alias since bringing Steve onboard or is it overboard?????????????????????????

Your reference to the ENF contains only the first 4 pages of a 200 page document, if you're going to respond you need to spend some time at the Conservation Commission or your local EPA to skim the whole report.

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No, I'm not too shy to use my "own" name or one of them at least. I'm not registered so I go by many names on the BB. I don't have any problem with Wizard replying to my posts. I don't agree with all he says on other threads but he is in agreement with me on this subject and is a smart guy so why should I mind?

I do think it is extremely rude of you to try and "out" someone on this board who chooses to use an alias. I think you should be banned from posting on this board since this is designed to be anonymous by CHOICE! Who are you to publicize who you think someone's alias is? You are obviously very desperate and very immature!

If I had time on my hands, which I don't, I'd sit down and read a 200 page EPA document. As for me, the 4 page summary will do quite nicely. I can see with my own eyes what a state of disrepair the Fairhaven Mills is in and can see what a depressing, filthy dump that land around it has become. You'd think if you and your group cared so damn much about the place you'd have come in and cleaned it up yourselves long ago. That place has looked much the same for years, even before the fire. You don't do anything about the mess until something else comes along and then you want to stand in the way of progress. Typical lazy NB BS!

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Happy Dog--if you were so disgusted about it for so long, why didn't YOU go and clean it up yourself? Seriously, if you really cared about your neighborhood, why didn't you mobilize a team of people to do crime watches, arson watches and picking up trash? Seriously, what has been your contribution to improving this area? Bringing giant bottles of "whine" to an online forum on a regular basis isn't much, and it doesn't even lend itself to good conversation.

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I think it's time to oust Wizard through a boycott don't even respond. Lets be pragmatically selfish and totally ignore him. I think that's the most reasnable thing to do. Because his off beat hyper-intellectualizing is hardly relevant to the thread.

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This thread is about the dirty deals and best use of the Fairhaven Mills site

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Govt intervention in our economy necessarily causes dirty deals as pressure groups attempt to get govt privileges and subsidies and govt restrictions on competitors. The corruption of the Soviet economy is a horrifying example. The only best use of Fairhaven Mills is what its private owner decides, with his independent judgement, what is best for him. There are no other legitimate concerns. Down with socialism. Up with capitalism.

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"Americans are rapidly losing their sense of place and their local loyalties as a result of the country's homogenization, courtesy of look-alike Walmarts and McDonald's, strip malls and housing developments."

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Capitalism is a form of economy or market, democracy is a form of government. One does not displace nor replace the other.

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Happy Dog--if you were so disgusted about it for so long, why didn't YOU go and clean it up yourself? Seriously, if you really cared about your neighborhood, why didn't you mobilize a team of people to do crime watches, arson watches and picking up trash? Seriously, what has been your contribution to improving this area? Bringing giant bottles of "whine" to an online forum on a regular basis isn't much, and it doesn't even lend itself to good conversation.

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As for me, the 4 page summary will do quite nicely. I can see with my own eyes what a state of disrepair the Fairhaven Mills is in and can see what a depressing, filthy dump that land around it has become. You'd think if you and your group cared so damn much about the place you'd have come in and cleaned it up yourselves long ago. That place has looked much the same for years, even before the fire. You don't do anything about the mess until something else comes along and then you want to stand in the way of progress. Typical lazy NB BS!

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It's not a summary...it's the first 4 pages..

And it's by the proponent so you have to take it with a grain of salt.

And if you won't bother to read the whole report then you are the Typical lazy NB BS!

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What I was saying is that I can see for myself what a deplorable state that lot is in. I don't need to take days off work to read a 200 page document that tells me what I should see. I can't imagine any worse and more degrading an environment for that neighborhood than an ugly mostly burned out contaminated building sitting on gross contaminated land. If that is your idea of New Bedford's glory YOU can have it!

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Then you should be able to get a private investor to agree and put his money where your mouth is. You can't? Private investors dont agree? Private investors, with their own independent judgement, are investing elsewhere. Maybe you should listen to the market instead of contradicting it with the poli†ics of democracy. Down with democracy! Up w/capitalism!

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Capitalism is a form of economy or market, democracy is a form of government. One does not displace nor replace the other.

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Capitalism is the politics of individual rights, including property rights. It's implicit in the Constitution (even tho there are destructive contradictions there, like the Post Office, interstate commerce regulation and a dangerously arbitrary concern with the alleged general welfare.

Democracy is the anti-individual rights politics of unlimited majority rule. Despite dishonest professors, the Founding Fathers were horrified at democracy. They had a classical education which acquainted them with the destruction of ancient Athens by democratic voting. We have a constitutional republic based on individual rights despite two centuries of democratic corruption.

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Still with the skewed theoretical BS..Huh..

What is wrong with you? Haven't yu been reading? It's been alleged that the incumbent administration and/or their associates are suspected of forcing the the Fairhaven Mills deal... That would be government coercion of individual rights.. So why are you arguing for the HD proposal if you are against the infracture of individual rights..

Whether you know it or not, Howland is headquartered in Meldon's building. And he was supposed to move his comnpany into the one that suspiciously burned down.

Something smelly here?

Not only did over a million dolars of real estate go for around twenty grand under the brokerage of a former city employee but the biulding that another mayoral candiate wanted to move into was burned down.


And Capitalism is not about individual rights... Capitalism is about Capital. Sometimes that capital is human. Slavery was a capital enterprise so is pimping. So is managing sweat shops...

Ever hear of a corporation? That's capitalism..You, apparently, never worked in one because you can't exercise you individual rights there...


YOU'RE FIRED

And if you're a stockholder You vote on things (that's democratic{kind of})..

Go start your on thread on political theory.. Go miseducate somewhere else.

Or are you just a Whelan/Leontire/Kalisz plant sent here to confuse the group.

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As for me, the 4 page summary will do quite nicely. I can see with my own eyes what a state of disrepair the Fairhaven Mills is in and can see what a depressing, filthy dump that land around it has become. You'd think if you and your group cared so damn much about the place you'd have come in and cleaned it up yourselves long ago. That place has looked much the same for years, even before the fire. You don't do anything about the mess until something else comes along and then you want to stand in the way of progress. Typical lazy NB BS!

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It's not a summary...it's the first 4 pages..

And it's by the proponent so you have to take it with a grain of salt.

And if you won't bother to read the whole report then you are the Typical lazy NB BS!

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What I was saying is that I can see for myself what a deplorable state that lot is in. I don't need to take days off work to read a 200 page document that tells me what I should see. I can't imagine any worse and more degrading an environment for that neighborhood than an ugly mostly burned out contaminated building sitting on gross contaminated land. If that is your idea of New Bedford's glory YOU can have it!

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Everyone can see it needs improvement..
But are you so small minded not to consider BEST USE..

That's what most of us against it are about..
HD will tie up one of the key locations from a better improvement. It would be fine if there were no other ideas to be presented but the admistration did not allow the normal "Research for Proposal" (RFP) process to happen..


They pre-empted this by creating a provision that a developer would have to have control of 75% of the property before they could present.. eliminating fair coompetition.

Before anyone knew it was happening they presented a highly irregular do or die situation.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/05-05/05-13-05/a01lo631.htm

The councilmen weren't too happy but they did not want to be seen as against development and allowed the demolition permit so that HD would pull out.

So basicly it was set up as a now or never before it was presented.

It was set up such that there would be no competitive RFP's.

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Happy Dog--if you were so disgusted about it for so long, why didn't YOU go and clean it up yourself? Seriously, if you really cared about your neighborhood, why didn't you mobilize a team of people to do crime watches, arson watches and picking up trash? Seriously, what has been your contribution to improving this area? Bringing giant bottles of "whine" to an online forum on a regular basis isn't much, and it doesn't even lend itself to good conversation.

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Because I don't particularly care above saving that building. If I did, I would! I have cleaned up other buildings, lots and parks I do care about. I think the Fairhaven Mills structure is not architecturally interesting, has way too many windows to heat the upper floors efficiently, does not have the structural brick stability and architectural interest of other buildings, and is basically unwieldy and impractical. I don't see what all the fuss is about that building. I think there are many sturdier more useful mill buildings to spend time and money on. Sorry!

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I don't know if you've recently been in the building but it's plenty sturdy.. Your argument about other buildings having more architectual interest etc. is not with out merit but.

A big but...

Fairhaven Mills is the one with the best International Exposure...It is the one that the world sees from the greatest distance and for the longest time when travelers pass on to the Cape and Islands.. It has a unique power to draw, tht known of the others have and that HD certainly does not..

Presently, it's in need of a face lift... But being of exemplary archecture or not it has enough of a facade for enhacement..

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Then you should be able to get a private investor to agree and put his money where your mouth is. You can't? Private investors dont agree? Private investors, with their own independent judgement, are investing elsewhere. Maybe you should listen to the market instead of contradicting it with the poli†ics of democracy. Down with democracy! Up w/capitalism!

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OK finally, another person making this point. In all this discussion the group trying to save the mill has never publicly posted a VIABLE alternative plan.

We challenge you to do it here and now. You have had the privilage of viewing the Home Depot preliminary plan. You know where the money is coming from. Let's see your plan now! Why are you trying to tell us what is best for us when your plan is shrouded in mystery. Why don't you put it on the table and let us make an honest decision.

If you'd actually present a viable plan that would save the still existing building, clean up and decontaminate all the parcels of land in that grouping, and bring profitable businesses into New Bedford then we might take that option seriously. As it stands, with a lot of mouthing off and negativity about the one plan that is on the table and NO real response in terms of an alternative plan cost analysis, backer information, clean-up plan and contractors, and actual businesses willing to move in there - We have to take this opposition as a amateurish joke!

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When the other possible contenders are told that the race is on when the only competitor running is in the last half of the last lap it's a little tough to catch up before he crosses the finish line..

I know of a plan that's been gestating but it's not going to be as well developed as the one from a Corp that's developed 1900 others before and appraoching the finish line.

And it's not going to be released until after the election and maybe not at all under this administration since they are gung ho on this well developed mediocre plan or so that other's can claim it for their own.

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the greatest distance and for the longest time when travelers pass on to the Cape and Islands.. It has a unique power to draw, tht known of the others have and that HD certainly does not..

Presently, it's in need of a face lift... But being of exemplary archecture or not it has enough of a facade for enhacement..

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That's what most of us against it are about..
HD will tie up one of the key locations from a better improvement. It would be fine if there were no other ideas to be presented but the admistration did not allow the normal "Research for Proposal" (RFP) process to happen..

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I don't know if you've recently been in the building but it's plenty sturdy.. Your argument about other buildings having more architectual interest etc. is not with out merit but.

A big but...

Fairhaven Mills is the one with the best International Exposure...It is the one that the world sees from the greatest distance and for the longest time when travelers pass on to the Cape and Islands.. It has a unique power to draw, tht known of the others have and that HD certainly does not..

Presently, it's in need of a face lift... But being of exemplary archecture or not it has enough of a facade for enhacement..

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What is wrong with you? Haven't yu been reading? It's been alleged that the incumbent administration and/or their associates are suspected of forcing the the Fairhaven Mills deal... That would be government coercion of individual rights.. So why are you arguing for the HD proposal if you are against the infracture of individual rights..

Whether you know it or not, Howland is headquartered in Meldon's building. And he was supposed to move his comnpany into the one that suspiciously burned down.

Something smelly here?

Or are you just a Whelan/Leontire/Kalisz plant sent here to confuse the group.

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What are YOU reading? Did you actually see in print that the building was torched on purpose? Can you quote a reporter in a legitimate newspaper saying the sale was coerced - in other words - Extorted? Is Mr. Meldon willing to testify to that? Why don't we call him and ask?? Are you accusing particular people of these alleged crimes? What proof do you have besides destructive gossip and innuendo. Let's hear it. If all these underhanded deals are for real - How do you know? What is the proof? Or are you just lying and trying to destroy innocent people's lives and the spirit of this city for your own selfish goals?

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Here is what you said in part: "causing you to see a polluted field and decaying building housing drug dealers and putting us in danger of fire 10 years down the line". You didn't answer the question I asked, which is what you done to improve the look of the field or instituting a neighborhood crime watch/arson watch? That has sod all to do with rejuvenating the last standing building. That is not what I asked.

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